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Poster: midnight sun Date: Dec 30, 2009 8:21pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: First 74 Slipknot prototype?

WOW!!! i'm completely overwhelmed by the responses here in every sense of the word...thanks to ALL of you for the input and links...i would like to take some time to carefully consider these developments as well as the connection to Stronger Than Dirt before revisiting

the reason i'm fascinated by these early Slipknots is that i believe this to be Jer's first "conscious" departure from "diatonic" structure into equal division of the octave (within "diatonic" structure i include the five common modes as well as "blue notes" and "passing tones" and other associated variations which tend to have rather limited applications)

the diminished 7th arpeggio (or chord) is formed by 4 consecutive minor third intervals (equal division of the octave, Cdim7 = C,Eb,Gb,A,C) although diminished chords show up in earlier compositions such as Deal and Comes A time, they are used only as a "passing chord" from one chord to another with limited time for exploration...Let It Grow features an example of a diminished 7th chord (Bdim7) for bars 3 and 4 of the verse that stands on its own and is technically not a passing chord as it returns back to the tonic chord for bars 5 and 6 (Amin7) but here again, the duration is too short to allow for any in depth contrast, at least one jazz "fake book" shows a Gdim7 chord for the entire first 12 bars of the verse to the jazz standard, "Caravan"

Jer also explores what some educators call a "double diminished" scale that can be heard as early as the Slipknot jam New Years 76 (Cdim7 double diminished scale = B,C,D,Eb,F,Gb,Ab,A or, semi-tone, tone, semi-tone, tone...)

the other common equal division of the octave concept is the augmented triad (3 consecutive major 3rd intervals, Caug = C,E,G#,C) and its associated whole tone scale (6 consecutive major 2nd intervals, C,D,E,F#,G#,A#,C) examples of these are a bit more difficult to pin down...Lost Sailor has what could be considered an Aaug7(alt9) chord in the turn around...i also hear Garcia making extensive use of whole tone scales during the "Space" sequences in the 80's, but i'm at a loss to discover when he first started to cultivate this...btw, Wayne Shorter's composition, "Ju-Ju" incorporates a Baug7 chord for the entire first 8 bars of the form

it is worth noting that conventional guitar tuning using intervals of 4th's between the strings came about centuries ago when almost all music was diatonic in nature...equal division of the octave does not "lay" very well within this tuning scenario with the exception of the major 3rd interval between the 3rd and 2nd strings, which provides some relief to the fingering issues surrounding equal division of the octave concepts

[as a side note, i know a jazz guitarist who tunes all of his strings in fourths (the 1st and 2nd strings tuned to F and C respectively) it works out quite well for his chosen idiom but is entirely unsuitable for diatonic contexts (just try a bar chord with this tuning and you will quickly realize the dilemma), if anything he chose the wrong direction, he would have gained far easier and more conducive jazz voicings by tuning all of his guitar strings to major 3rd intervals, not 4th's]

perhaps i should clarify my intentions here, music theory is intended to allow for organization and understanding of musical concepts as well as to facilitate musicians in associating musical sounds to concepts that can be easily applied to their only explains what HAS been done, not necessarily what CAN or WILL be done, and is is in no way to be used as a weapon to demonstrate false superiority of different appreciations...appreciation is entirely subjective...even intonation (which can be clinically proven with common electronic devices that record frequencies) is entirely subjective...examples; the East Indian use of quarter tones and traditional Japanese classical propensity to adjust pitches comparatively sharp...just because it sounds "off" to us is no reason to assume it doesn't make perfect sense within the context of their cultures

thanks again for all the responses, if any of you or anyone else has more to add i will be referencing this thread over the following weeks and would greatly appreciate any further input, particularly to any 73 references that might be uncovered

yous guys rock!!!

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Poster: spacedface Date: Dec 31, 2009 3:02pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: First 74 Slipknot prototype?

I think that snippets of Slipknot are in the Playin' and The Other One (here start at 3:00) in this show:

This post was modified by spacedface on 2009-12-31 23:02:41